Episode 01

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00:00

Introduction to the Podcast and Hosts

09:59

The Importance of Ownership in the Digital Age

20:09

The Shift from Physical to Digital Ownership

29:56

NFTs: A Game-Changing Technology

34:45

Generative Art and Its Impact on Ownership

Yossi Hasson (00:02.721)

It's like Darth Vader has stepped into the room.

DES (00:06.169)

Can you hear me? So many contraptions here. This is not how it's advertised on Amazon. Alright, it's supposed to be one click.

Yossi Hasson (00:07.435)

You

Yossi Hasson (00:31.937)

Dan, have you got headphones in? Because I'm getting echo.

DES (00:32.204)

Dan, have you got headphones in because I'm getting echo.

DES (00:45.962)

Moment.

Yossi Hasson (00:46.229)

Let's hear it out.

Yossi Hasson (01:09.771)

When you log in to Riverside, you can probably have to log out and then log back in and then say that you're using headphones.

DES (01:11.495)

When you log into Riverside you can probably have to log

and then say that you're using headphones.

Yossi Hasson (01:20.617)

and a microphone.

DES (01:20.926)

and am I prepared.

Yossi Hasson (01:26.977)

We're going to do some tech support.

Yossi Hasson (01:32.801)

Hello, hello.

Yossi Hasson (01:57.333)

listen to it last night. Yeah, it great.

Dan (02:15.451)

It's just like hotspotting and like didn't have headphones for like a whole day.

Yossi Hasson (02:21.281)

Should I come over and try and help you?

Dan (02:21.605)

Should I come over and try and help you? Yes.

Yossi Hasson (02:26.337)

Okay, I'm be right in a second.

Dan (02:53.905)

Let's see what this is. I mean, it's not it's not where it belongs, right? your AirPods connected? I don't think so. Bluetooth. I mean, they were connected to the computer. That's them at the top. Okay. So let's leave this.

Dan (04:03.666)

Hello?

Dan (04:09.854)

Say it again, Robin.

Dan (04:14.567)

Now we're on.

Dan (04:21.99)

Yes, he's on mute.

Yossi Hasson (04:25.281)

Hello, hello?

Dan (04:27.058)

Hello, you sound good.

Dan (04:36.402)

you

Yossi Hasson (04:36.541)

My mind's not using the mic, it's using my AirPods, so let me just switch that. on.

Yossi Hasson (04:47.809)

says you can't do it while recording so I have to leave and re -do it.

Yossi Hasson (04:55.934)

Cool.

you

Dan (05:24.048)

I more like the conversations we have in the office between us or with others rather than something that comes across formal and stodgy because people want they want to feel like they're right here on our shoulder and we want to feel them right here on our shoulder

Dan (06:30.545)

today.

Yossi Hasson (07:11.479)

And why are we recording it again? Was there an audio problem or?

Yossi Hasson (07:20.387)

always causing problems,

Dan (07:22.398)

I mean, well established. I take full responsibility.

Dan (07:51.787)

Okay. So Yossi's kicking off. Are you reading this podcast descriptor or that's just for our information?

Dan (08:07.952)

Is that something you wanted the DOC to read?

Yossi Hasson (08:24.719)

Cool.

Dan (09:00.464)

Yossi, the first thing that you own, the guy the other day said it shouldn't be, he didn't think it should be something that you got from your parents. It should be something that you bought yourself.

Yossi Hasson (09:15.437)

first thing I bought from myself that's very later in life but the first thing that I truly felt like I owned was my computer but my parents bought that for me.

Yossi Hasson (09:27.983)

Yeah.

Yossi Hasson (09:50.959)

Cool.

Dan (09:51.038)

try and make it more jovial, Yoast. I'm going to ask after you finish your intro, why are we doing this?

Yossi Hasson (09:59.343)

Cool. Let's do it.

Yossi Hasson (10:23.375)

Beautiful.

Yossi Hasson (10:35.973)

This is the Reimagine Ownership Podcast where each week we are diving into how blockchain and Web3 technologies are transforming ownership. We'll explore how decentralization is shifting power from the big corporations to individuals, making ownership more transparent, secure and accessible. Join us as we uncover how these innovations are changing the game and paving the way for a fairer, more equitable future. Today is podcast episode number one. I have.

myself, you'll see Hassan and my co founder Dan Schmerin It's this new microphone, Dan. It's elevating everything. is, should see my face.

Dan (11:05.606)

Your voice is so soothing.

Dan (11:16.7)

Why are we doing this?

Yossi Hasson (11:19.181)

Why are we doing this Dan? It's a good question. I think we, you we didn't have enough things to do. So we decided we want to add something to our plate. and in all seriousness, we're doing this because what we do, we think is very important in the world of re -imagining ownership, in our digital lives. And we've seen how technology has huge impact on society and we're not happy with the status quo. We're not happy with.

A few big corporations effectively owning the internet, owning our data, owning our lives. And what we're involved in, me and you at Metaversal, is re -imagining that and investing in the technologies, the tools, the creators, the believers that there is a different way for technology to shape society. And we want to be part of that change. So we are here to help showcase all of that. Who are the creators? Who are the entrepreneurs? Who are the people?

And learn with you, our audience, as we bring on these incredible founders and creators in this industry. And at the same time, also ask the questions that people don't necessarily ask, which I know you do, you love to do Dan, and really take the other side. I'm like, is this, you know, are we, are we really doing anything here? Is this really making an impact? Or is this just one big casino? Correct.

Dan (12:41.586)

Do people really care about ownership? We can start with that question. In the physical world, it seems that people are obsessed with ownership. And in the digital context, it seems like you just leave it at the front door for the sake of convenience, for the sake of having the app. I don't get it.

I don't understand why it is that that which is true in the physical context doesn't seem to be so readily true in the digital context. And maybe you can help me and others better understand why there's such a gap.

Yossi Hasson (13:19.255)

think you're right, we gave up our right to ownership digitally. Because I don't think when the internet came out that we thought there was this thing called ownership online, or digitally, we didn't actually understand that your digital ID or digital life is

something of value. seemed like a hobby. seemed like something tinkering online and ultimately has become a huge component of our lives. And we've given up that ownership, like you say, for convenience that you can have this app that you put in your pocket that can give you all the world's information at your fingertips. But the cost of that is that you have now given up control. You have given up your authority over that data, you've given up

the value that that is creating and you've given that value to these huge organizations, these huge corporations that are generating billions of dollars off your eyeball and off your attention. And that has become the status quo. But I don't think we signed up for that.

Dan (14:20.988)

Doesn't a lot of that, doesn't a lot of that, that's a great point, doesn't a lot of it have to do with selective disclosure? Here's what I mean. These days, based on new regulation, every new website that I visit, I get a request, a little pop -up box that says, do you want us, do you permit us to have track and cookies? Yes or no, approve or reject.

I would love to meet the people that are approving those tracking cookies. More often, they're rejecting them. I think there's something interesting in that mindset because I am a serial rejecter. I do not want you tracking.

I like the innovation around DuckDuckGo. I find it comical that Apple has come out and now positioned Safari as the beacon of privacy, given all that Apple has usurped in terms of data and information. They have great marketing people. But isn't this the point that the more those big tech companies that you're referencing will disclose how they are using and potentially misusing your personal information,

You clicked on a box one time. No one read the terms and conditions. It wasn't in plain English. It was in legalese. Even if you read it, you couldn't fully understand all the different ways that Yossi's information is going to be used to create targeted advertisements and a whole host of other things for you. In exchange, you got free Google search. You may have gotten a free Google email account.

My supposition here is that if they had disclosed in very simple language, the same thing that we now see for targeted cookies, most people, more than half, would opt out. More than half would say, that's not a trade I'm willing to take, or I want some rule sets around it.

Yossi Hasson (16:13.231)

Nope.

Yossi Hasson (16:16.813)

I wonder though, I think you're actually in the minority of people who click reject. Most people just say accept, accept, accept and let me get on with my...

Dan (16:25.306)

Is that because they're lazy or they really enjoy it?

Yossi Hasson (16:29.645)

I think it's because they don't understand it necessarily. you know, Mark Zuckerberg made this bet a while ago saying that he doesn't think people care about their privacy online and will be willing to trade that data. And obviously was right, built a very successful business in you trading your data, pictures of your friends and family and your connections and your social graph and everything that you do online is now in the hands of Metta and being turned into.

billions of dollars. And his hypothesis was that people don't care, people don't necessarily care. And I think his hypothesis was right, because back then, we didn't understand what it meant for that to happen. So he saw the future, he saw that this is what's going to happen. And each individual collectively didn't really foresee that this is the impact of that type of technology. And now we have a little bit of hindsight and history.

where everyone is a bit smarter, where now if you get the pop -up and says, I'm going to take your data, I'm going to do these things and more disclosure was happening, maybe you would get closer to the 50 -50 side of things because we're seeing the impact that these technology companies can have on things like your mental health, on election outcomes, who gets a platform to say what they want to say, who doesn't, and everything that's intertwined in that, that ultimately these algorithms can dictate.

your livelihood can dictate your mental state can dictate almost everything about you. And now the stakes are much, much higher. And the impact is much higher. So going back to the original questions of why are we doing what we're doing? Well, we're really here to talk about a new paradigm, this wave of web three, this wave of digital ownership, this wave of blockchains and why it's important for people to understand it.

Dan (18:09.606)

Now I like that.

Yossi Hasson (18:26.405)

to interact with it and who are the people and what are the conversations that are happening that ultimately will shape the future direction of this technology incorporating AI and everything that you hear about so that we can change the status quo. Well, that's why I'm here. Why are you here?

Dan (18:47.108)

I'm here because the old system wasn't working properly. I got to see the inside of the old system, financial system, both from the perspective of regulators when I started my career inside the Beltway in Washington and as an investor when I left government. And it was clear to me that every industry we studied was filled.

with unnecessary frictional costs, unnecessary rent seeking middlemen who had profited by providing very little value add and instead were serving as barriers between consumers and creators. You could call me a consumer vigilante, whatever you wish.

But the bottom line is the existing system didn't make sense because we were evolving far faster than regulations and industries were keeping up. I give you one tangible example and I want to touch on the point you made about maybe people don't care. Maybe people value convenience over all else, or maybe people just don't know. When I worked in government,

I was operating at the intersection of economic policy and national security policy. And through some of my work, it became very clear the type of means that the government had to collect vast amounts of information, both about domestic individuals and foreign adversaries. I became highly attuned to the fact that everything that we do,

from your cell phone, back then it was BlackBerry's, to your online presence, is leaving a digital footprint. And it may not be a footprint that you like. And so I agree with your point about hindsight being 20 -20, because I'm certain there's a lot of people who have applied for jobs in the last decade. And those human resource managers who do the vetting start with a check of social media.

Dan (21:06.652)

And there's plenty of people that didn't get the jobs that they wanted because of something untoward on their social media site. So even if they hadn't thought about it or chose convenience and said, as you point out, Zuckerberg's going to be right. I made a habit of never leaving a footprint on Facebook, of never having a presence on Instagram. Meta doesn't have anything meaningful on me, at least not that I'm aware of.

So how did we end up here? Because your life is filled with a series of different events that inform how the economy should operate and what we're passionate about. When I moved to London after college, I was going to grad school. I was also working part -time for a member of parliament. Very exciting, 2003. London was amazing.

But I couldn't rent an apartment. When I went to rent an apartment, they said, we're very happy to have you. You seem like a nice fella. You look presentable. You just need to have a local bank account and we'll be able to complete the paperwork. Great. So I went to a local bank, HSBC, nice logo. And they said, we're very happy to open an account for you.

You look like a nice fella, very presentable. You just need to have a local address. And therein lies the Catch -22. You begin to pull your hair out. Why is this so difficult? I have addresses in the United States. I have...

Passports and driver's licenses and any of the documentation one would want you let me into the country Now you just won't want me to stay in the country. Well, you have an institution in London that's accepted me to study for the year

Dan (23:11.006)

Those are all small examples of the bifurcation in these systems, where that which may be true in one country, in this case, the United States, we're privileged. You carry a United States passport, just about everyone opens your doors. But we know that's not true for everyone in the world. That wasn't true for you, was it?

Yossi Hasson (23:35.193)

Wasn't true for me. Well, the United States opened the doors once I got a visa, but, you know, similar experience. And I think anyone who's moved countries will have a similar experience where once you cross the border, you're invisible. Anything you've done in your previous country becomes invisible in the new country. Once I landed in New York City, it didn't matter what education I had, what degree I had, what I'd built and accomplished in a company, what was in my bank account.

It was all invisible to the US system because the systems are different, outdated, and the same experience. Couldn't rent an apartment, had to pay with, didn't have a FICO score, couldn't get any credit, couldn't open a bank account. All of that, the system was closed to me as an individual. But what I did have was Bitcoin and I could use my Bitcoin because Bitcoin transcends borders. It's one system globally.

Dan (24:10.044)

incompatible.

Dan (24:15.624)

Did you have a FICO score?

Yossi Hasson (24:32.961)

And I think that's what we're talking about here about how we reimagine ownership and the technology and everything that can be done is that we have these new systems, we have new technology, we have new ways of thinking about the world, and the technology needs to catch up and society needs to catch up and culture needs to catch up. And that is a lot about what we will cover in the coming shows about those three intersections, technology, society and culture.

How do they intersect? How are they going to be impacted? And how can we rethink about the way that we do things to make the world ultimately more egalitarian, fairer? The status quo isn't working for the majority of the world and majority of the population. Owning a home today, we spoke about it in the beginning, know, physical ownership. Owning a home today is unachievable, unattainable for the majority of the world today. And that trend seems to be accelerating, not slowing down.

And at the same time, people are really trying to find ways to connect and to find community and to leverage this technology to help solve some of these problems. And we think there is a pathway here in the world of web three. And that's what we're excited to talk about. One thing that you said, which was most scary for our listeners is probably that, you know, when you started out, you were using a BlackBerry. So revealing your age. But with that comes some wisdom.

And we've seen a lot of trends and changes in the world of technology. And hopefully it can be your guides, your Sherpas into navigating that for yourselves and understanding this world of blockchain, AI, web three, NFTs, the metaverse, and the intersection of all of that and why it's important for you in how you prepare yourself for the future.

Dan (26:25.81)

I think at the end of the day, everything comes back to ownership. And whether people acknowledge it right now, whether they are digital natives like my kids, or they are not digital natives like my parents, this is something that is unavoidable. And your digital presence, digital assets,

are going to be viewed and valued in much the same ways that we have historically interacted with those physical objects. I see it firsthand when my kids are playing games and billions of people are involved in gaming.

And I think they come to the same conclusion that you asserted earlier, which is I just like to play the game. I buy items for the game, swords, shields, outfits, all those in -game assets, but they leave them there. They belong in the game. If they want to go and play a different game, they have to buy it all over again. If the game stops, the game goes out of business. All that money.

is lost. And that has made no sense to me over the last decade. And I know you have a more formidable gaming track record than I do, although for a while on the original Nintendo I was quite good.

Yossi Hasson (27:43.054)

is gone.

Yossi Hasson (28:01.583)

You with OG? No doubt.

Dan (28:02.82)

at Mike Tyson's knockout, okay? I knew the special code to wind up that massive punch and I took out all my classmates.

Yossi Hasson (28:14.356)

Well, let's talk about, you know, going from the world of gaming and us starting Metaversal and why, you know, almost three years back, if we take ourselves back to late 2021, the world of, or the world that had learnt about this word NFT, it seemed to be a overnight sensation. And we saw the news and heard that...

Dan (28:36.316)

Is it a three -letter word or a four -letter word?

Yossi Hasson (28:40.057)

Well, right now it's a four letter word. And we saw how the world attention went into this concept of digital assets. You could buy a picture on the internet that is provable, that it came from the creator or the artist and that there is a one of one of it. And this idea seemed to take hold and you had hundreds of thousands of dollars, millions of dollars being put behind some of these JPEGs.

and half the world saying, is crazy. This is, just a Ponzi scheme. And the other half of the world saying, this is the future. This is going to reshape how, technology, you know, shapes our lives. And for the first time you have this digital provable, provable scarcity digitally that unlocks all of these new ways to think about the technology. And we've been three years through that journey. We've seen the highs and lows.

Today's NFTs, most NFTs are not trading at those types of numbers. They're still a very healthy, active marketplace of tens of millions of dollars being traded daily, but the kind of million dollar sales are becoming fewer and further apart. And for the rest of the world, maybe that half that thought this was a scam, they're looking at and saying, you see, I was right. This is a scam. Maybe it's now, maybe now 60, 70 % of the world saying, you know, this is not something that is of interest.

Dan (29:56.432)

Only half? Only half thoughts of scam?

Yossi Hasson (30:05.206)

This is a flash in the pan. It was because of COVID and everyone was bored. And then there is a percentage, maybe a smaller percentage.

Dan (30:13.214)

But that reminds me, Yoast, that reminds me of the New York Post article in 2000, which said the internet is a passing fad. And how right they were. I start every morning reading the New York Post.

Yossi Hasson (30:23.78)

Yes.

Dan (30:28.58)

and it's kind of like inverse Kramer, okay? So much of what's in the post you take for entertainment value. There's a small smidge that's factual, and then there's the embellishment, which is for our collective enjoyment.

Yossi Hasson (30:51.865)

Yeah, I don't remember the executive, but there's a, the famous line of one of the IBM executives saying, it wouldn't be a need for more than seven computers in the world. and you know, how, how wrong was he, in that equation? So, you know, obviously we're on the view of NFTs is a game changing technology and the market price of these assets isn't an indicator of the impact it is having.

and the change that is coming. But we're to use this platform as an opportunity, not just to hear people who think like us and who are the believers, but also to bring in other people who are maybe skeptical, maybe have some challenges about what is happening in this world of Web3. Where are the users? Where is the growth coming from? And how are these technologies ultimately making a difference in people's lives?

and bringing the full spectrum of conversations here and bringing them to you. We have that access through the three years that we've been building this business and the stories that we have and the technologies that have been built and the things that we've done as Metaversal investing in this space. Some that have worked out beautifully and some that have unfortunately not played out the way that we had hoped and ultimately help you see where...

Dan (32:12.264)

failed miserably. You could say that. There are some that have failed miserably, painfully.

Yossi Hasson (32:20.084)

painfully, painfully miserably. But, and be part of that conversation and also reveals, you know, what worked and what hasn't worked in help shaping this. We think over the next 10 years, this is a transformational technology that will change the way we interact.

Dan (32:35.984)

It is. It's not a think. It is a transformational technology. Maybe there's a PR problem. I want to dig into that with you. Why are we even talking about NFTs? Let's just talk about the solution. Who talks about MP3s? When you talk about music, I don't hear you talk about the delivery mechanism or the underlying technology. That's something no one cares about.

Yossi Hasson (32:40.879)

Fit.

Dan (33:01.116)

So maybe it's shame on us, shame on all the developers and engineers that have gotten a microphone to talk about the technology that's being built. And instead that tech should be abstracted away. And we should just focus on the experience. Maybe the consumer doesn't care.

Yossi Hasson (33:17.401)

What do you think that should apply to AI? Everyone's talking about AI. Why should we be talking about, you know, not AI? Is it the same thing?

Dan (33:27.25)

I think in a handful of years, you're probably right. We won't be talking about the revelation that it is AI. It's just gonna be, yeah, I have an assistant that sits on my shoulder. I always want a little parakeet. You can pet it, but it's not really there. And it always seems to have the right answer.

Yossi Hasson (33:46.223)

Yeah, I think that's a valid point. know, when, when, I think of my pathway in technology, started in the Linux and open source world. and at that point in time, this idea of the cloud was starting to, form everything was on premise before that. And this notion that this cloud is going to be the savior of all technology. and today we don't talk about the cloud. just talk about accessing software. mobile phones came onto the, onto the scene and everything was an app. and,

That was the kind of predominant focal point. And now that is also not how we talk about it. This is how we interact with our phone as a fully fledged computer. So I do, I do think you're right that over time, the word NFT becomes just part and parcel of how we think about our ownership online, our identity online, our systems online, and all of that technology gets removed out into the background. And it becomes just like magic. This is how it works. This is what we expect it to work.

and we will ultimately get there, but maybe the same with AI is there maybe needs to be some initial, understanding of this technology in its own framing on the revolution that it brings. And that's why it gets so much attention and focus around this word. but perhaps you're right. We're at the point where the NFT should fall away and the experience, the results, the benefits should become at the forefront of what we talk about, and something that we should be, talking about here.

and bringing to the forefront. And I think that's a good thread for us to follow on from.

Dan (35:22.663)

What's next?

Yossi Hasson (35:25.251)

What's next is that, you know, this is the show. This is what we're doing. This is why we are here. so if you're interested in the world that we've just spoken about this intersection of technology, culture, and, I forgot even what I said in the beginning was technology culture and, society maybe, and that was the trifecta. If you're interested in those three things and how they intersect, the conversations that we can have on the global stage here with the founders, the creators, artists.

Dan (35:42.16)

It was, that was your trifecta.

Yossi Hasson (35:54.231)

the musicians that are all part of this movement, the highs and lows, the wins and losses that, this industry is facing, from both a entrepreneurial stance, some of the regulatory stuff that it relates to. Well, that is what reimagined ownership is about. and this podcast will, be around every week, having those conversations with myself, with Dan, with some other people from, the Metaversal Organization. so.

Please do tune in, subscribe, hit the like button and we look forward to the heated debates and conversations that we'll be having in the weeks to come on the show.

Dan (36:34.48)

I want to conclude with one question. You've got some squiggly lines on the wall behind you and they emerge from your head in a unique way. Some are red, some are black, a few are yellow. What are those lines? Why is that hanging on the wall?

Yossi Hasson (36:37.711)

Go for it.

Yossi Hasson (36:43.48)

I do.

Yossi Hasson (36:55.397)

Well, these, why is that hanging on the wall? Great question. So this is a generative art piece by a very acclaimed generative artist in our industry named Tyler Hobbs. It is a one of a thousand that was produced through an algorithm that produced a series of different unique, each one unique, but random.

And that collection is called the Fidenza collection. And this is one that we own as Metaversal that is represented above me. But in the world of generative art, Fidenza are kind of one of the standout or the OGs in the space. And we have a business, Le Random, Jan Copens, who is one of the thought leaders in the generative art space. And one of the conversations that we'll be bringing on, you know, what is this idea of generative art? Why is it such a

a shift in the art world and the impact that it has had and why we think that generative art as a category will be as big if not bigger than pop art is today. So a great question and one that will tap in.

Dan (38:04.296)

This is a show about digital ownership and digital assets. And here you have a fancy physical artwork on the wall. My brother is already going to be confused and we haven't even gotten to the second episode. Are you to tell us that this is not a zero sum game?

Yossi Hasson (38:13.583)

You

Dan (38:27.28)

that we believe there is a continuum that will expand physical and digital. You don't have to pick one or the other. You can appreciate both and that both will ultimately have meaning and value.

Yossi Hasson (38:28.537)

you

Yossi Hasson (38:43.053)

Well, you're have to stay tuned to the second episode to get an answer to that question. And for us to and reveal that but all great questions. If you are listening to the show, please send in your questions and we can make sure that we cover them either myself and Dan sparring it out on where does this all go? Or one of our incredible guests that we have lined up to bring their insights into.

Dan (38:48.37)

Maybe now I'll come back.

Yossi Hasson (39:11.087)

this future that we're all building together. Thank you.

Dan (39:15.878)

I'm excited.

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